Organized Chaos Called Home

15 responses so far ↓

• 1    Adiel // Mar 28, 2007 at 10:52 am

  I like it! Do you think I could find it in Joshua’s size? ;o)

  It’s strange seeing my brother looking happy while wearing pink. Kinda creepy.

• 2    Seth Ben-Ezra // Mar 28, 2007 at 3:53 pm

  Argh!

• 3    James Lansberry // Mar 28, 2007 at 4:06 pm

  The suit definitely says that–but then doesn’t Seth’s look say that all on its own without a pink suit?

  Crystal–I wanted to challenge (or get you to clarify if I misunderstood) what you said in the previous “suit post.” You said something about business suits at church representing doing business with God. I don’t think that’s the case at all.

  (NB I am *not* making an argument for Seth wearing a more “traditional” suit. I actually think he looks more “natural” in the pink suit above (sorry, Seth) than he would in a navy blazer. In fact, I can’t even imagine Seth in a navy blazer.)

  But the suits are traditional for a reason. I don’t think the history goes:
  * bankers wear nice suits
  * we should wear nice clothes on Sunday
  * we should dress like bankers on Sunday

  I would not be surprised to find out it was more like:
  * people wear nice clothes to church
  * trustworthy people go to church
  * bankers should dress like people going to church.

  I may certainly be wrong–but the second seems more likely than the first.

  I wear sportcoats most Sundays to worship. I am comfortable in them. I enjoy wearing them. I wear sportcoats may days to work. My sunday outfits are among the better clothes I wear during the week.

  Now because of the current work I’m doing I dress differently than I would if I was climbing trees for a living–but what would it say of me if I was willing to wear a suit and tie to meet the governor but not to meet with God, the King of Kings? I’m not sure about that. That argument has always plagued me, but I’m not sure what to counter it with if it’s inappropriate.

  Either way–the fact that some wear business suits to church does *not* imply that we subtly think we’re going to do business with God any more than wearing sneakers to worship means that we think of God as our playmate.

  Clothing for worship is a tough issue–and if I misread what you said in your prior post please clarify here–but not one that we just throw away carelessly (and I know you’re not doing that) nor oversimplify into symbolism because of how others use certain clothes. It may be that they stole from us.

  Oh–and Seth: I have to tell you (and TC agrees) that the pink works well with your skin tone. I wouldn’t wear it either–but it does look good.

• 4    dlr // Mar 29, 2007 at 3:55 am

  Oh, man! That’s beautiful!

• 5    mollie greene // Mar 29, 2007 at 9:17 am

  will you all be wearing pink for easter, then?

  it’s so *not* goth. ::giggle::

• 6    Barb // Mar 29, 2007 at 6:07 pm

  It’s Shaft Ben-Ezra!

• 7    aaron // Mar 29, 2007 at 7:15 pm

  Smashing!

  I think that hat’s about a 7 and 1/8 in size. Seth needs something more like a 9 or 10.

• 8    Crystal Ben-Ezra // Mar 30, 2007 at 9:08 am

  Here’s the issue, James. I think that the church has become, especially among Presbyterians, a place where we go to be good citizens, good people, and think well of ourselves. We go, dressed in our pretty little suits (yes, I mean women too), drop some cash in the bucket and go out feeling good about ourselves.

  Now there is a backlash in our culture. What do people think of Christians in our culture? They think we are hypocrites and scamming for their money. Most people don’t trust the church because the church is a bunch of liars in suits looking for cash. Probably in part, because they look like bankers.

  Now, obviously, there is still a place for going to Church, a place for tithing, and a place for dressing nicely for God. And even if we were all
  truly faithful to our God, the world is still going to hate us.

  But, the reputation has merit. We have earned that reputation. Do you hear the commercials on mainstream non-Christian radio stations about us?
  About churches in the area? Oh… they make me so mad!

  So what am I suggesting? I’m not suggesting T-shirts and jeans, necessarily. But I am suggesting that each person bring HIS best to
  Jesus. Now that doesn’t mean that if a man can afford a suit, then he should buy one and wear it. I mean, if a man is the kind of man who wears a suit, he should wear it. If that is his best. And if a man is the kind of man who wears T-shirts and jeans, then he should wear his best T-shirt and jeans. Each should bring HIS own.

  Seth is not a suit man. If he wore a suit to worship, he would NOT feel like he was bringing HIS best. He feels like a fake. He feels like he is not being honest with God.

  Now, you need to understand that my convictions on this are apart from Seth completely. My convictions on this began in an old church before I met Seth.

  Back then I was ministering to a man who was a very new Christian. He was homeless (sort of…long story). But he came to church. On Sundays, he wore his VERY best ripped jeans, his very best t-shirt, combed his greasy, dirty hair, trying to clean it the best he could with mud puddles and lotion. He came smelling of dirt and sweat and cigarettes. But he came with HIS best to worship the Lord.

  But people complained about him. Instead of trying to get to know him and know why he dressed that way, instead they complained to the pastor. The pastor came to him and said that he was disrespecting God by coming into the House of God so filthy and poorly dressed. They told him he needed to get a suit and then come back. As I recall, the pastor even gave him a couple bucks and told him to look at the salvation army.

  But this man was floored by the hypocrisy and wondered where this *love* was that I spoke of.

  He left the church that day.

  To be fair to his story, he returned to Jesus a couple years later, but he still doesn’t trust the church.

  This is what really shapes my views on suits. Now I know that doesn’t mean that wearing a suit is wrong. And for some people, it is their best and their honest expression of themselves. And that’s good. For them.

  But we find ourselves in the same boat as this man. Do you have any idea how hard it is and how expensive it is to find a suit in a 46 x 50 long in black that doesn’t look dorky and won’t break the budget? If I can even *find* the suit? And a button down shirt with a 21 neck(I think)?

  I was looking for a sports coat. I found one in Seth’s size at Casual Male. Black, (but it was the soft microsuede I wrote about) it was long
  enough, and $110. And even if I bought it (I liked it), Seth wouldn’t like it.

  So what then are we saying at church? Are we saying that to participate, to be apart of worship, that a man must have $110? And he must wear clothing that makes him feel that he is lying to God? And makes him feel effeminate (if I bought the microsuede)?

  I hope that clarifies for you, James. Though I’m sure I just got myself into some trouble.

• 9    Stacy D McDonald // Mar 30, 2007 at 8:07 pm

  Oh Seth, pink is so…not you.

  I agree with you, Crystal, in that we should bring our best to God. If the best we have honestly means our very best pair of ripped jeans and a stained t-shirt, then praise the Lord! Praise God for a heart for Jesus. If it means the suit that Mr. Pew-warmer attorney wears to court on Monday is in the closet while he wears his comfortable Dockers and a golf shirt on the Lords day, then shame on him! Our comfort shouldn’t be the issue – honoring God should.

  I also agree with you that we shouldn’t be pretentious in who we are and what we communicate to others by our choice of clothing, however, there’s something precious about a genuine desire to bring honor to the Lord by representing Him well.

  I appreciate your desire to do this and I know God will bless it.

• 10    Stacy D McDonald // Mar 30, 2007 at 8:08 pm

  Oh my! I know I capitalized all references to God, but for some reason everything is lower case…

• 11    Crystal // Mar 31, 2007 at 7:14 am

  Yeah, the theme is set to do that. I don’t like that it makes everything lower case.

• 12    James Lansberry // Mar 31, 2007 at 1:12 pm

  I think someone fixed the theme. :0)

  Crystal–I think we’re talking past one another. I am not at all disputing whether Seth should wear a suit. I’m not convinced he should. I think he might find a nice “sportcoat” that he likes and is “him” but he may not. I was contending with how it came across like you may be making accusations about the motives of those who *do* wear suits.

  I wrestle with this along with you. If a homeless man shows up at God’s door then we bring him in and love him and he brings whatever he can. Even not expecting him to bathe is symbolic that we cannot clean ourselves for Jesus–He must do it for us.

  I rarely wear ties to worship. I don’t care for them and find them to be a silly invention. But yet I’m willing to put on one to represent my place of work in court or in a legislature. We recently shot a video and I wore a sportcoat and a lime green shirt and I brought “who I was” before the shooting. To wear a tie would have been on some level dishonest for me. And so I don’t wear one to church.

  Some of this is figuring out why we dress the way we do at other times. Right now I’m wearing torn jeans and a t-shirt I was given. I’m working around the house today and so I’m wearing clothes appropriate to working around the house. If I was coming to your house for dinner I may change, but if I was gong to someone else’s house (you’re family) I would definitely do so. But not into a suit and tie.

  I wear a tie when I do certain things because I step into a “foreign court” so to speak, I think. The legislature or the court of law or the governor’s office is not “my world.” It’s theirs. And one day their world may be taken captive for Christ and be full of less pretension–but right now it is. So I wear a tie so as to not cause unnecessary offense, as Jesus tells Peter when paying the poll tax. And before the world outside I think that is good and proper. Before one another? I find it terribly inappropriate (maybe I’ll get myself in trouble too).

  We’ll one day be planting a church in a neighborhood where we’ll need to consider what is “unnecessary offense” here. It won’t be the same as it would be if we planted a church on Grandview Drive–but it will be there. It may be that my beard goes or that I don’t wear something that I do now. I don’t know. That will take time.

  Anyway–I don’t think we disagree here. As I said above I’m not arguing for Seth wearing a suit. I was contending that someone who wears one has a businesslike view of worship rather than merely bringing his best to God. I believe we worship with men and women who seek to do just that–and whether in a nicer pair of jeans than they wear on a normal day or in a suit and tie–we ought to continue to strive to bring who we are before our King–and strive to accept who those are around us for who they are before our King–and strive to challenge one another to pursue what we ought in living before the King.

  Thanks for the discussion.

• 13    Jonathan // Apr 2, 2007 at 10:13 am

  Who would have thought that Leviticus would have value??

  *Please note I am being silly, I don’t need a lecture on how all of God’s Word is pertinent and valuable*

  As I am reading through the Bible I am stuck in Leviticus right now unfortunately, seriously, that book is boooring.

  Anyway, there are many rules that apply to the priests attire and yet none that apply to the people, but many rules that apply to HOW they worship, just none about what people wear while worshiping.

  There is a respect issue, but there is also the issue that we are supposed to be a family, we are God’s children. You stated, James, that you wouldn’t get changed necessarily to go over to Seth’s house since “you’re family.”

  We are God’s family as well, maybe what we wear isn’t important at all, but what we bring: humility, repentance, worship.

  Just my thoughts.

• 14    Crystal // Apr 3, 2007 at 8:21 am

  Okay, James, I understand a little better now. And to answer your question… Yes, I *am* saying that there are those who wear suits because they believe they are coming to do business with God. But not that everyone who wears a suit is pursing this. Some are doing just what you said, striving to bring their best to God. If I were a man (and thank God that I’m not), I would probably wear a suit. I actually like suits. At least the Italian ones. Please understand that I am not speaking about our church or anyone within our church. Actually, I am thinking about Presbyterians in general, along with many of the higher social class churches.

  I’ve seen it before and talked to many people who have that attitude. Church is a place you go to be a good person and a good citizen. You raise the flag, say the pledge, pay for an indulgence, receive your forgiveness, straighten your tie, and walk home justified like a good American.

  Where is God in that? But that is good American Christianity. That is why my generation is looking at that and asking, “Why should I partake in that hypocrisy?” But they still want something religious. My generation is not a generation of Atheists. My generation is a generation wanting something spiritual. And so they look at Christianity and see a bunch of business men looking for money. As they continue to look around, they might see the Muslims with real zeal and devotion (that’s all they got going for them), Buddhists and their cool looking robes, Pagans and their gentleness and mystery, and Wiccans, with their robes and staffs with those cool crystals at the end.

  If I had my pick of any religion, and one was not more right than the others, and God was not YHWH, but a spiritual essence that could be pursued by any spiritual means, I would by far pick the pagan or Wiccan (as I once did in my pre-Christian life). They look (on the surface-but I know better) peaceful and gentle, mysterious and very religious. They look spiritual. Whereas we just look corporate.

  Corporate does not appeal to those looking for Spiritual things. Corporate says “Let’s do business.” It also says that those wearing the suits are untrustworthy. No one trusts the evil corporations. No one trusts a man in a suit, claiming he has authority. Not in my generation.

  So, anyway, please understand the logic here. Not everyone who wears suits are aiming to deceive God in a businesslike fashion. But many people who wear suits are doing this. The suit is not in itself the sin. In some people, the suit is the reflection of the heart that has already decided to do evil.

  And beyond that, the suit is a symbol in my culture and my generation. The suit is oppression, greed, and deception. The suit is corporate and evil. Thus my concerns. I have thought about what kind of changes we would have to make to be an inner city church. I think we would do well to visit some churches down here and see and make connections with them. But the first thing that would have to go would be suits and ties. Well…unless they’re more like the ones you buy at Fifth Avenue. Or a “business casual” look.

  Beyond all that, the biggest concern I have is ties. The devil invented them as a means of torture. They are highly dangerous pieces of apparel and should not be worn by anyone. Just like capes, they can kill. No capes! No ties!

• 15    Audrey Gould // Nov 12, 2008 at 4:52 pm

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